6 February 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – episode 90
EMMA- Hi, I’m Emma Tracey. This is Access All, the weekly podcast where disability and mental health is always top of the agenda. This week, in the disability world at least, there is one big story, the government has released the Disability Action Plan, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Let’s go.
MUSIC- Theme music
EMMA- On Monday the government published its Disability Action Plan. In Parliament, Mims Davies the new Disability Minister, introduced it like this.
[Clip from Parliament]
MIMS- I am delighted to deliver on the government’s commitment to transform the everyday lives of disabled people across the country for the better. We as a government are working to make this country the most accessible place in the world for disabled people to live, work and thrive.
EMMA- She described it as one pillar in what the government are doing for disabled people. Today we’ll be digging into what’s in the plan and how we got here. Interesting. With me I’ve got James Taylor, Head of Policy and Strategy at disability charity Scope. Hi, James.
JAMES- Hi there.
EMMA- I’ve got Rachel Charlton-Dailey, who’s a disability rights campaigner and journalist who writes for various publications including the Mirror and The Big Issue. Hello, Rachel.
RACHEL- Hello.
EMMA- And we’ve got the BBC’s Disability Correspondent, the one and only Nikki Fox.
NIKKI- That was very official, it’s very unlike us.
EMMA- We’ll stick with you first, Nikki. What is the Disability Action Plan?
NIKKI- That’s a big question there, Emma. The Disability Action Plan, as you said, is 32 actions that the government has put together to, in their words, transform the lives of disabled people. The context around this, as we know very well, Em, because we’ve covered this on the podcast in the past, we had the Disability Strategy in 2021, and that was also billed, like the Action Plan, as transforming the lives of disabled people. But we know happened, obviously there was some legal action and it was all around the consultation process. Doug Paulley and others took the government to court saying that they didn’t consult properly, and if you don’t consult properly how can you come up with a big strategy to improve the lives of disabled people? They were successful, but then that was overruled by the Court of Appeal and found in the government’s favour. That was in July 2023, so there was a few years where nothing was being done because of the legal shenanigans.
That’s kind of how the Action Plan has come about really, it’s come about because of what happened to the strategy and what went on, and it was billed again as a plan to transform the lives of disabled people. The Minister for Disabled People, Mims Davies, has said she wants Britain to be the best place for disabled people to live, work and thrive. There’s some strong words behind this Action Plan.
EMMA- A mini short-term strategy?
NIKKI- A mini short-term strategy. I mean they’ve been bolder than I thought considering. At one point I thought okay, this is going to be the new strategy, but it’s not the new strategy. I’ve spoken to the Minister’s people and the strategy as we know is still to come: the strategy part two, so this is kind of like an interim. But they have put some strong words behind it.
EMMA- So, what is in it?
NIKKI- There’s some stuff that I know disabled people wouldn’t knock. I went to an accessible playground in Barnet, north London, which was delightful, best filming day, and there is some measures in the strategy to not put money into creating more accessible playgrounds, but to make it easier for councils to go about what they have to go about to get accessible playgrounds off the ground. But the parents that I met actually had to fundraise as well as get some money off the local authority, so money is always an issue.
We’ve got stuff in here, the most controversial point actually, about the rights of assistance dog users if you’re blind and you need a guide dog, you go to a shop or whatever and you’re refused entry. That is illegal. But they have mentioned in here that they want to streamline the reporting process for access refusals.
EMMA- And that’s for other assistance dogs as well.
NIKKI- That’s right, Emma, for other assistance dogs.
EMMA- Not all about blind people unfortunately.
NIKKI- Are you sure?
EMMA- Yeah. So I’m told, Nikki.
NIKKI- It is in my world. There is also a new fund to support disabled people who want to be politicians get into elected office, which I’ve met quite a few wannabe disabled politicians, and I don’t think anyone would knock that either.
BSL interpretation, that’s British Sign Language interpretation, that’s to be at all major press conferences and briefings. That’s going to happen from Spring 2024. And we know that there were a whole hoo-ha, rightly, about the lack of BSL interpretation at the big government briefings during the lockdown.
EMMA- You did a piece on the news on Monday night about the plan. Did people get in touch with you afterwards? What was the reaction like from disabled people? Briefly.
NIKKI- Yeah, we had a lot of reaction actually. In the piece I was particularly keen on hearing from the voices of the people that I hear from all the time anyway. We know that right now there is a cost of living crisis and that’s impacting disabled people in many ways. We’ve done it before on the podcast, energy prices, people that need to charge equipment, all of that kind of stuff. We know that employment’s been an issue that’s been going on for years, more disabled people want to work and the difficulties around that. We know that there’s a care crisis, a lot of people can’t find carers. We know that people with learning disabilities are sometimes inappropriately housed in these awful assessment treatment units. There are really big, big issues that are impacting a lot of disabled people, and I wanted to get that into our report as best we could in the time that we had.
Off the back of the report I notice straightaway, and I know you guys have too, Katie Pennick tweeted “nothing on transport, nothing on housing, nothing on social care, nothing on PIP, nothing on hate crime, nothing on urban planning, nothing on healthcare, nothing, nothing, nothing”.
EMMA- What you’re saying is a lot of the feedback, Nikki, was about what wasn’t isn’t it.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- James, you’re from disability charity Scope, what’s Scope’s reaction been?
JAMES- There are some things in it. Whether they’re the right things, completely debateable. I think if the government’s goal is to make the UK the most accessible place in the whole world, which is a really laudable aim and I don’t think anyone would deny that’s a good goal. However, the actions in the plan don’t stack up to creating the most accessible country in the whole world. It feels very piecemeal, there’s no funding behind anything. There are some commitments to do things, but some of them are quite far off in the future. There’s a really good thing about funding for people who want to seek elected office, that’s a fund that was scrapped a couple of years ago and is coming back. But it’s not coming back until next year, after the General Election.
EMMA- Interesting.
JAMES- Then a couple of actions which are more about the Minister will have discussions with people, which don’t really feel like actions and feel like something the Minister should be doing as part of their day-to-day business anyway. So I think it’s disappointing. I think the goal is good, but I think what’s underneath it, and I think if we’re calling it a pillar I’m worried that it’s going to fall down, the action does very little to address the concerns that Nikki’s talked about from disabled people up and down the UK.
EMMA- Rachel, let’s come to you now. You’ve been listening to Nikki and James there, what’s your reaction as a disability rights campaigner to the plan?
RACHEL- Yeah, pretty much agreeing with what everybody’s said. The plan in pieces is good and there is some small pieces that are good from it, but from the whole it really just lacks tangible actions that go beyond highlighting or speaking to. Like James says, those are things that should already be happening. In a government that’s been in power, even though it’s different forms of government for 14 years, they should already know these things. They can brag all they want about wanting to make it the most accessible place for disabled people, but what’s that going to count for when disabled people can’t even survive the winter when they’re not being given the support to actually be able to get a job or to just live their life on a daily basis?
NIKKI- Because there was something, Emma, in there, about the cost of living, but it was improving understanding of the cost of living for disabled people. It’s exactly what your guests have just mentioned there, it was the talking not the actual action. Like a social energy tariff, that was going to be a thing and it’s not a thing.
EMMA- Yeah. And a lot of people are saying, aren’t they, that there has been enough they feel research on the cost of living.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- And when Mims Davies, Disability Minister, announced it in Parliament, not all MPs were impressed with the plan. Here’s Marion Fellows from the SNP.
[Clip from Parliament]
MARION- This Disability Action Plan isn’t a plan, it’s a mishmash of short-term policies. Some of the proposals are welcomed and should have been sorted out long ago, others are unclear and simply don’t address the most pressing concerns of disabled people.
EMMA- She’s not happy, Nikki. The government says that it’s a pillar, it’s one of the things that they’re doing for disabled people, and it’s a short-term plan and it’s very specific areas. How would you describe the plan?
NIKKI- Well, the Disability Strategy, which I thought may have gone away but it hasn’t, and that is still going to be a thing, we’re not sure what’s going to happen with that. I have no dates or anything to give you unfortunately but I am on it like a bonnet, Emma, but I don’t know. But it is to work alongside that and many other initiatives. It’s difficult because there was a lot kind of riding on the Action Plan for a lot of disabled people. One of the things that I thought really got people exorcised was the online article which was talking about the rights of assistance dog users, which you’ll know about Ems as well.
EMMA- Dogs always get lots of reaction.
NIKKI- Why not?
EMMA- People love dogs.
NIKKI- People are saying it is illegal for any service provider to deny entry to someone with a disability and needs a guide dog anyway. They felt like the plan was kind of making these points, and actually what’s needed is enforcement. Does that make sense?
EMMA- Yeah. A lot of the things in the plan are actually about more understanding, and they’re things that are either around or have been talked about for a long time anyway. Could it be described as a talking shop, James?
JAMES- I think there are some tangible things in there. I think the cross-governmental approach is a welcome one. However, I think like we’ve said, there’s not really much substance. At Scope, and I know lots of other disability charities and disabled people organisations, will push government to go further, and I think we really want to hold them to account on firstly making sure these things happen. But secondly, there’s now a bit of a confusing situation where we’ve got an Action Plan, a National Disability Strategy bubbling away somewhere, as Nikki said, and we’ve got a White Paper on Disability Benefits, we’ve got a Back to Work Plan, there’s a Social Care Plan, all impacts on the disabled, but it’s not really clear how these things link up and join up. And they have to if we’re going to create the most accessible country in the world. We can’t have lots of separate pillars, we have to have one really strong foundation.
EMMA- So, how will they do that then?
JAMES- Well, I think sort of bringing it back together really and being really clear what is it that government are trying to do, when it is trying to do it by, and what does success look like? I think that’s what’s missing from yesterday, some great actions but not much clarity on when it’s going to happen, and what will it feel like and look like for disabled people?
EMMA- And Rachel, what do you think they’re doing? Maybe there’s some of the cynical people that have been reading it are saying that they’re putting in this short-term plan just to get votes at the General Election.
RACHEL- That’s definitely what it feels like, to be honest with you. Because whilst they’re saying they’re going to be having all of these talks and they’re going to be having these discussions and raising awareness, they’re also at the same time making disabled people the enemy again. They’re doing things such as in the press and in other policies such as the Back to Work Policy, they’re making it seem like we don’t want to work or we are all lazy or lounging on benefits and all of that stuff. So they’re putting all of the hatred back onto disabled people and then with the other hand going we’re going to help them, we actually really are doing lots for disabled people. And it’s like you can’t say you’re doing both when disabled people are suffering so much. It’s you, you’re the reason that we’re struggling, you’re the reason that we don’t have the support and that hate crime is rising more and more. It’s not directly because of the government, but when all of these ideologies are coming out it’s going to affect the way society views us as well.
NIKKI- I get so many emails, Emma, from disabled people saying to me I want to work, I want to be able to get up in the morning and live my life, do my thing, whatever it is. That’s I think more what many people were hoping the Action Plan would do, would improve those parts of their life. We know that people are struggling to find carers. We know the disability employment gap has remained around 30% for as long as I’ve been in the job, well over 10 years. We know the care costs/charges are really difficult for a lot of people. We know that disabled people are struggling with finances at the moment. They’re the kind of big issues that many disabled people tell me they want to see tackled.
No-one’s knocking the fact that there may be more accessible playgrounds, that’s great. The playground I went to they were lovely, it was joyful, it was great. No-one’s knocking certain things. But especially now there are really huge issues that are really impacting disabled people, and they can’t do anything about it, it’s out of a lot of people’s control, and that’s what they need to see. And there is no money in this plan.
EMMA- That’s interesting, you’re saying that there is no money in this plan, it’s all plans to do things after more consultation.
NIKKI- Yeah.
EMMA- But the government is doing something about the cost of living, isn’t it? The government is doing something about getting disabled people back to work. There were Private Members’ bills but they did bring through the Down Syndrome Act and the BSL Act as well.
NIKKI- Yeah, they did. There are things that they have done. This is what people tell me, there are things that the government have done that are helpful.
[Clip from Parliament]
MIMS- When it comes to wider interventions around energy, for example, tomorrow we’ll see another cost of living payment, there’ll be more support through the Household Support Fund. So I would say to anybody who was worried about their energy costs, if they’re disabled or indeed have other needs, there is other support out there for them.
EMMA- James, the £1.6 billion allocated for disability stuff is tied up in the Disability Strategy, which the government has told us they will give us more details of in due course. But we don’t really know a lot about it, do we?
JAMES- No. And remember, that figure which was announced with the Strategy a couple of years ago, at the time not new money. It wasn’t new money then, it’s not new money now. So I think it’s really important to be clear that that’s tied up in programmes, projects, pieces of work that are already ongoing or exist, it’s not new funding, and I think this is the real challenge. We’ve talked about playgrounds, really great. I think the crux of where this is falling down, in the response to the survey which had 1,300 responses, which is brilliant, 93% of respondents said they think there should be a legal requirement to make new playgrounds or playgrounds that are going under renovations, accessible by law. 93% of the public agreed with that. It was even trailed in the consultation. Government in the plan yesterday said we’re not going to do that, despite nearly everybody responding saying that’s a great thing to do. I think that’s just a real good example of probably how many disabled people and charities like Scope, feel.
EMMA- They’re going to set up an online portal for councils, and they’re going to have best practice, aren’t they. But the strategy, the progress of that, we don’t know about that do we James?
JAMES- No, we don’t. We’re not clear where that’s gone, and I think at Scope we’re going to push the Minister on trying to get an update on where that is and how that actually links to the short-term actions that have been announced this week.
EMMA- And will it happen before the election do you think?
JAMES- Well, I’d like to think so.
NIKKI- I’m none the wiser either I’ll be honest, and it’s my job. It’s so hard to get the information.
EMMA- What do you think, Rachel?
RACHEL- I haven’t got a clue about any of this information.
EMMA- Rachel, what was your favourite thing in the Action Plan? What was the thing that you saw that you thought actually that’s a really good thing?
RACHEL- The one good thing that I thought was that they’re going to put more funding into researching domestic abuse and the reasons behind domestic abuse for disabled people, because that is something that really we are missing. There’s the stats but they’re old stats and we need more understanding of that. That was one good thing, but more than anything there was a lot around disabled kids, like the playgrounds and the SEN stuff. But we’ve got to remember that disabled kids hopefully will turn into disabled adults, and there wasn’t enough for disabled adults and helping them thrive to get to that stage.
EMMA- Interesting. There’s a lot about consultation. The appeal about the strategy was that it wasn’t consulted on properly. This plan mentions consultation, user panels, working groups, consultation, a lot. Do you think the government has taken something from Doug Paulley’s legal action and the appeal?
RACHEL- I think more than anything they want to appear like they’ve taken something from it, and they want it to look like they’re trying to listen to disabled people as much as possible. But whether they actually do listen to disabled people is a complete different matter, because we’ve been shouting about these things for so long. It’s great that the BSL stuff’s coming, but that’s taken four years of people shouting about it.
EMMA- Nikki, what do you think? The government seems to be going in hard on the fact that they have consulted disabled people and their families and are continuing to do so by setting up the user experience panels and the working groups to bring actions forward.
NIKKI- I did look out for that when the Action Plan came through on email yesterday, and I think it’s one of the first things that you read in the foreword or something where they clearly spell out that they consulted with more than 1,300 disabled people, their families and disability groups. They’ve got to because that was the big problem. Legal shenanigans aside, that was an issue last time.
EMMA- What are your final thoughts then, Nikki, on the plan?
NIKKI- It’s just interesting for me as a journalist to look out for the reaction when something like this is announced, and social media’s been a fascinating place for me actually. I think if I was to summarise, and I think your guests Rachel and James have done this brilliantly as well, no-one’s knocking the good parts, and there are some good parts in the plan from what disabled people tell me. I just have had that overwhelming feeling on social media and people that have contacted me, that it’s just not enough, that right now is a tricky time to be disabled. It can be difficult for everyone at all times, but right now disabled people have got a lot going on, and the focus on the really big issues that many tell me that does need money. Local authorities are stretched, some of these problems it’s going to be difficult to find a solution. That’s what a lot of disabled people wanted to see with this plan and didn’t.
EMMA- They wanted to see more money in solutions.
NIKKI- Yeah. As James said, Mims Davies the Minister, was very much saying that she wants it to have a real transformational impact on the lives of disabled people, and she wants the UK to be the best place to live, worth and thrive if you’re disabled. That’s great and that’s great that that’s there on top of their agenda, but the plan really needs to make a difference to the lives of many disabled people who are struggling at the moment.
EMMA- James, what are your final thoughts?
JAMES- Echo everything Nikki has said. I think it’s some good things, some things that need to go much further. Thinking way back to the last election, there was a big commitment to tackle the employment gap, watered down from the National Disability Strategy, that was then watered down into the Disability Action Plan. So we’re still left with these huge societal issues that I don’t think government have really got a grip of. And it’s a shame, because if they do we will unlock so much potential of the 60 million people in this country, bring so much more money into the economy, and make society a much better place for everyone, and I think that’s the bit that’s missing.
EMMA- Rachel, unlocking potential?
RACHEL- Yeah. I mean there’s a lot of potential that could be unlocked, but more than anything we just need to be given the tools and to be given the support that means we’re going to be able to survive, and beyond survive, actually thriving. Because it’s great that we have got this employability and this economic pull, but if we can’t literally be allowed to just live our lives and be given the support to be able to live and to be able to work and thrive, then what’s the point?
NIKKI- I would add very quickly that I was listening to Mims Davies, the Minister’s interview, because she did a quick interview for us for the piece, and I was listening to it back today, and she did mention in her interview about wanting disabled people to live and work and thrive and all of those kind of things, but she was clear to also say and to support people who can’t. Now she did use that awful “v” word which we won’t go… I wish they’d stop with the “v” word.
EMMA- The vulnerable word.
NIKKI- Yes.
EMMA- Sorry, I said it. Yes, I said it.
NIKKI- You said it and you promised me you’d never do that.
[Clip]
MIMS- A huge body of work which will make sure this country is the best place to be a disabled person, whether you’re an entrepreneur like the Lilac Review that we announced just last week, or indeed if you want to get into work, or you’re most vulnerable and you need to be protected. I’m absolutely determined whatever situation or need you have, this country will be the right place for you.
NIKKI- I know she did mention that word, but she did make a point of saying that. I always look out for that because I’m kind of mindful, because again I get messages and I speak to people who are like, “Ahh”. It’s kind of a scary place to be when you can’t do the things that the government wants you to do like work. It’s hard. Some people can’t, and they need to be supported, and she did make a point of that in her interview.
EMMA- And can’t articulate that they can’t, can’t say that they can’t, can’t tell the government I cannot work.
NIKKI- Exactly. And if they don’t have the support around them to articulate that for them either. These people need to be thought of really very much so at the forefront of whoever is running the shop’s mind. But she did mention that in the interview. Didn’t make it on the old box but she did mention that in the interview, which I always look out for that, I’m particularly mindful of that.
EMMA- Everybody, thank you so much Rachel Charlton-Dailey, James Taylor, and thank you to our Disability Correspondent, Nikki Fox. And Nikki, you’re going to keep coming back onto the podcast, aren’t you, when big disability stories arise.
NIKKI- Emma Tracey, you cannot keep me away from you, I will be back.
MUSIC- Music
EMMA- You can get in contact with us, you can email us [email protected], or you can go onto X, formerly known as Twitter, and we’re @bbcaccessall there. See you next week, bye.
MUSIC- Music
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