09th May 2024
bbc.co.uk/accessall
Access All – episode 104
Presented by Emma Tracey
EMMA- You’ve already had one episode of
Access All this week with Liz Carr. This is our second interview special of the
week, and this time it is with the Minister for Disabled People, Health and
Work, Mims Davies. And she’ll be joined by Craig Crowley who’s from the British
Sign Language Advisory Board that’s been set up for a year now, and we’re going
to talk about that. But to be honest, there have been loads of disability
stories in the news lately, big ones, and we’re going to talk about those too,
so let’s just get on with the show.
MUSIC- Theme music.
EMMA- Hello, this is Access All, the
disability and mental health podcast from BBC News. I’m Emma Tracey, and in
your second episode of Access All this week we are speaking to Minister for
Disabled People, Health and Work, Mims Davies, and the co-chair of the British
Sign Language Advisory Board, Craig Crowley. That was set up a year ago, Craig
is the co-chair and he’ll be speaking to us through a British Sign Language
interpreter. Please subscribe to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your
podcasts. And you can contact us with any feedback on this interview or about
anything else on [email protected].
It’s been exactly a
year since the government created a BSL, British Sign Language Advisory Board
to better understand the lived experience of deaf people. Mims Davies, the
Minister for Disability, Health and Work has decided to come on to our podcast,
Access All, to talk to us about the board and how it’s been going. And joining
Mims Davies today is Craig Crowley, who’s the CEO of Action Deafness and the
co-chair of the advisory board. Hello both.
MIMS- Good morning, Emma. Hello, Craig.
CRAIG- Hello, good morning.
EMMA- Good morning, you’re so welcome.
It’s really nice to have you with us, Minister. I think Minister would we be
fair to say the job title that disabled people deserve, rather than
Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Mims Davies?
MIMS- Well, both are ministers, and I
have the same power with both. But I’m not going to complain about being the
Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work. I’m delighted to do the
role. It’s the most humbling and brilliant role I could ever hope for.
EMMA- Well, more about that maybe later.
But let’s talk about the BSL Advisory Board. Mims, why did the government set
up this board?
MIMS- It’s been one year since this
board first began advising government on key issues when it comes to those
impacting BSL users in the deaf community. And this board has been appointed for
three years to look at a programme of work to address the matters that deaf
people feel are barriers that need to be challenged, and also to bring forward
opportunities. So, what you’ve seen is them helping with the development of the
new BSL GCSE; giving really clear and important insights into the barriers that
deaf athletes have when it comes to competing; and also looking at priority
areas for disabled people more widely, but really for deaf people the issue
also is around health and social care so they’ve been looking at that;
education and wider government communication. So, they’ve been very busy in
this first year, and I’m delighted all the team have really delivered on a big
focus for government, which frankly needed to happen.
EMMA- This one’s directed at Craig: there
were 17 of you on the board, what was the experience like for you and what do
you want the government to understand?
CRAIG- Well, it’s a real honour for me to
be the co-chair of this committee and be part of the board. It’s really important
because it’s helping the government to understand the issues and we’re sharing
lots of information with them, issues that really affect the deaf community.
The experience so far I have to say the board itself is a collection of very
different people, there are 17 of us altogether, and we are able to advise the
government, give them information and address issues that can really drive
forward positive change.
EMMA- And here on Access All, BBC’s
disability and mental health podcast, we have created some BSL videos on the
BBC Sounds YouTube channel. And there are six videos and they’re highlights of
some of our best interviews this year. Craig, I just wondered, and Mims, around
the advisory board have you guys looked at BSL in unusual or different types of
media, not just TV, you know, podcasts and things like that that wouldn’t
necessarily be signed? Have you kind of looked into better access to those?
CRAIG- If I could just jump in quickly,
that’s one of the many areas that we will be considering as part of the
advisory board. Recently we had the National Disability Action Plan and we were
advising through that process. We had BSL interpreters in the Number 10
announcement. And that’s one step towards where we want to be. And podcasts
will be another step along that road. It’s definitely something we’re
exploring.
EMMA- Thank you so much, Craig. And Mims,
is that the kind of breadth of things you want the board to be looking at and
talking about?
MIMS- Absolutely. The board will be now
looking at their next programme of work for the next two years of their tenure,
Emma. I think hopefully it’s building on the ground-breaking recognition that
BSL has as a language in England, Scotland and Wales. It sits alongside, as
Craig said, the 32 practical actions of the Disability Action Plan, which is
running across this year. There will be a further update from the board this
July. They’ve already had one report; there’ll be another one coming. And that
will link into the Disability Action Plan updates as well they will be
reporting in the summer.
EMMA- I would imagine that the success of
a board like that often depends on the minister and where they are in the
set-up of government. And if we can just move on a little bit from BSL because
we’ve got you here Mims Davies, I mean your job title was an interesting thing
on our podcast, we talked about it a lot. First of all we talked about the gap
there was after Tom Pursglove stopped being the Minister for Disabled People.
There was a gap, it was the longest in years. And then you were given disability
as part of a wider brief with social mobility and other things, and as a
Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I mean, was the brief too wide? Was the job
title too low? Should you have been immediately a minister?
MIMS- Just to be very clear to people
listening, there was a lot of narrative around this and some of it wasn’t quite
right, Emma. I’ve been pretty much the longest serving minister in DWP, not far
off five years, and one of the reasons that I have got this role is because of
my experience of delivering for people in the labour market and in the
Department of Work and Pensions. My dad was disabled for over 25 years and my
mum worked with young disabled adults, those people transitioning out of
education and into young adult life. She was part of the early part of the RDA
and she was also part of the early movement of the Special Olympics. So, I
actually think I am very much the right person for the job. And just to be
clear, once there was an opportunity to make me the Minister of State it has
been a mixture over our government of Parliamentary Under-Secretary or Minister
of State.
EMMA- Well, it has; it’s mostly been
Minister of State though.
MIMS- Yes, and I’m delighted that it has
that recognition of course.
EMMA- But then you were given it as part
of a wider brief.
MIMS- Well, let me come onto that. But
also, if I may, the other point around the role is actually those transitions
from education into the wider labour market and wider support are actually
really key. And I have a big focus on young people and social mobility and
progression for people. And disabled people and those with health conditions,
and housing which is part of my wider brief and my knowledge, bringing that all
together and having been the Employment Minister I think was really important.
I’ll just say, under the Labour government always the disabled minister under
the Blair government was a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. So, those people
saying from the sidelines this is a demotion it’s not right.
EMMA- Was there a lot of pressure on the
government to bring the job back to Minister of State? Because I mean David
Clarke, from Paralympics GP, headed up an open letter with quite a lot of
organisations, which got quite a lot of media attention, saying that it should
be brought back to Minister of State. Was that part of the reason?
MIMS- As soon as it was possible with
the government positions, which are set by Cabinet Office and their various
rules, it has been. Look, I’m wearing my Paralympics badge. I worked with the
Paralympics when I was Sports Minister so I know them well, and I understand
why that argument was being made. But to my very strong focus on this is it
didn’t matter what level I was or how much I get paid, because ultimately that
is what people were pushing for me, me to get the promotion, I was doing the
job whatever. And I was delighted to do the job and I would have done it any
level. And I think being focused on the rank in government wasn’t helpful
because I think disabled people felt that they didn’t have a representative,
which wasn’t true. And from day one I’ve been working on the Disability Action
Plan, on the work that we have here with Craig and the team there, and the
perception that disabled people weren’t understood or being forgotten, and
that’s not the case. And I’ve worked very hard to make sure that people don’t
feel that.
EMMA- No, I hear you, I hear what you’re
saying. So, what’s your relationship like with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on
disability policy? And the reason I ask that question is because on 30th April
you reposted a post on X from disability charity Scope, and I’m just going to
quote it. It said, ‘Proposals to curb PIP and to change how people are assessed
as unfit for work are dangerous’. You reposted that, actually twice. You did
repost the consultation as well. But it did lead us to wonder whether you
agreed with what’s in this consultation around PIP, which we’ve been talking
about a lot on the podcast. And if not, what do you disagree with?
MIMS- So, I was trying to share the
message which is on my post that this is a very clear, open consultation for
disabled people, those with health conditions and those that have needs to
actively feed into the government. For some reason it has shared twice. I was
trying to make the comment that I have shared.
EMMA- We all make slips, we all make
social media slips in terms of sharing things twice. But you did share it once,
so I wonder did you agree with Scope and what they said?
MIMS- No, I don’t agree, which is why I
was trying to say this is an open consultation, and I don’t want disabled
people and those with health conditions to feel frightened about what is a
green paper and a discussion paper, which is exactly about making sure disabled
people’s voices are heard and understood – exactly what we’re discussing on the
programme. For whatever reason, either a glitch I don’t understand, and other
people have had the same where they’ve tried to make a comment on it. So, I
really don’t think that’s the story. The story for me is that I don’t want
people to not have a say and to over-read this; but to have their voice in this
consultation. We’ve talked about it on the podcast today about disabled people
getting a voice, and that’s what I was keen to push; not that this is any kind
of done deal and that people should be scaremongering.
EMMA- Well, it isn’t a done deal, it
definitely isn’t a done deal because the results of the consultation won’t come
out and nothing will be able to be done with them until after a General
Election. Which has made some disabled people feel that this consultation is
more of a gesture to the voting public who agree that benefits are too high,
who agree that the wrong people are getting benefits. Is it?
MIMS- So, a few things. I’ve been a
minister at DWP for five years, more or less, working on the Kickstart
programme to help young people, quite often with undiagnosed health conditions
and needs, to progress into work; setting up youth hubs to help people with the
biggest barriers into work; and also to support people at their most
vulnerable. There is a huge narrative, which is what I was trying to combat in
that message, that there is some kind of done deal on this. This is about
understanding the needs. And what’s been very clear from the Disability Action
Plan or the National Disability Strategy that disabled people want and need to
be heard, and that actually a changed labour market, we’ve got more people…
EMMA- But some of them feel like
political footballs right now. Some of them feel like they’re pawns in a
political game because this consultation has come out so far into an election
year.
MIMS- There’s no political game here. I
think the reality is, and I was just going on to say, there is a changed labour
market: there’s less presenteeism, more flexibility, more AI, more tech, more
ways that we can support disabled people to work, thrive and flourish in the
way that’s right for them. And part of that is looking at the benefits system,
for one reason because actually some of those most vulnerable and those people with
the most financial needs and costs need to be understood. But equally are we
targeting our support right? We have beaten our disability employment goal, and
I’m looking at that right now, things around Disability Confident and other
interventions such as Access to Work.
EMMA- Oh my goodness, do you know what, I
could talk to you about the disability employment goal and the widening the gap
etc. but…
MIMS- Well, watch this space, Emma.
Watch this space.
EMMA- But, you know, you always say
you’ve widened the gap when actually it’s a bit more complicated than that,
isn’t it?
MIMS- Exactly, which is why we’re
looking at the next goal.
EMMA- Right, can we go onto Stephen
Timms, the Head of the Work and Pensions Committee? He criticised the DWP when
all the news came out around carers being allowed to be overpaid their
allowance and it not being caught on time, and them being in lots of debt and
being asked to pay it back. I mean, five years ago MPs asked the DWP to do some
research around how the payment system affected the carers, and that report
hasn’t come out yet. You’ve mentioned recently that it will come out soon, but
why is it not here? Why have we not seen the results of that? Is there
something to hide there?
MIMS- No. it’s being used for policy development
on carers, and it’s actually incredibly useful. And our Secretary of State and
I have agreed for it to be published, and it will be shortly.
EMMA- When will it be published?
MIMS- Well, the process is the process.
It will be I think, in parliamentary speak, “shortly” because this is a very
interesting subject for me. I was the co-chair of…
EMMA- Weeks? Months?
MIMS- Emma, I’m trying to answer your
questions and it’s really difficult if I can’t finish my sentence. I was
co-chair of the all-party group on carers, so I’ve been working with Carers UK
since I came in. One of the reasons to be in frontline politics is I came from
a family impacted by disablement and caring, respite and everything that comes
with it is one of my drivers in politics. So, I’m delighted to be looking at
this policy area. And Stephen Timms and I in the select committee and indeed in
Westminster Hall debates just recently, I’ve really welcomed the interest in
this area. He had a look at this with or the previous committee rather in 2019.
He is a minister who was in the department in 2008 as minister looking at
benefit change. And it’s been there since the 1970s. And I think it is one of
the most challenging policies and support to get right. If you’re not a carer
now you will be a carer in the future or you will need to be cared for, so we
as a government, we as a community need to get this right. And I do welcome the
interest and I’m looking at it forensically.
EMMA- Yeah, we do look forward to seeing
that report. There are so many things I want to ask you, because we talked
about the UNCRPD, the UN’s disability committee, and that they’ve been looking
into what they say are violations of their requirements around about giving
disabled people dignity and Access to Work, and the Work Capability Assessment.
And there was an evidence session in the summer last year which the government
didn’t attend. That didn’t look really that great, did it?
MIMS- It’s not unusual for government
ministers not to be there. I was actually, when that session was on, answering
questions in the House of Commons, so I couldn’t be in two places at once. But
I am disappointed with what they’ve had to say. I will be in New York this
summer at their event, all being well, I’ll be part of the Paralympics. But
also equally, Emma, you’ve said there’s lots to get on with, and that’s what
I’m doing as well, whether it’s looking at Disability Confident and how to make
that right; the next disability employment goal, delivering on the Disability
Action Plan this summer; the first update which we hope to bring forward around
accessible playgrounds; the work around costs and other things that disabled
people want and need us to be looking at.
EMMA- Like extra costs?
MIMS- Yeah. So, there’s a big body of
work that we’re doing. But I fundamentally feel disappointed with that report.
Again, it seems to fit this narrative that the government is, you know, not
keen to understand disabled people; which I fundamentally disagree with. That’s
why I’m in this job, absolutely all in to make things better and make those
relationships better, and disabled people and those with health conditions to
feel supported. One other key area is so many employers want to support and
help people in the labour market, perhaps if it’s an acquired condition as
well, and I’m really working strongly with employers to stop just talking about
that narrative, but deliver on that narrative and give them the confidence to
do that. And I think that’s really exciting when it comes to this labour
market.
EMMA- So, in three words, will it be
something different to Disability Confident? Because it feels like Disability
Confident is on the way out?
MIMS- No, no. Disability Confident we’ve
just done some further updates on management guidance. But for me I think you
need to be looking at the whole lens when it comes to disability employment,
whether it’s around the goal, around Disability Confident, around Access to
Work. This needs to work for disabled people, employers, and that’s what I’m
focused on.
EMMA- Disabled people would say all those
three things need changes. We’re talking to Liz Carr, disabled actor, about her
documentary on assisted dying or assisted suicide, which is what she would call
it. And obviously it’s been in the news a lot lately, the Prime Minister is
saying there would be a free vote on it, so you won’t be whipped, you can vote
how you want. Taking your job as Disability Minister and your experience of
disability, is it okay to ask what you will be voting or what you will be
thinking about when making that vote?
MIMS- I think it’s always important to
listen to the debate, as a constituency MP, where there’s any free or
conscience debate. But for me I very much feel, and as the Minister for
Disabled People, my dad often felt a burden and felt worried about the future,
I’m very mindful that’s how many disabled people and disabled organisations
will feel. So, for me if this comes forward, and I think the opposition have
said that if they come forward they would bring it forward, this is something
that we’ve seen recently in Westminster Hall, I don’t think we should be
rushing into this. We’ve already seen a private members bill which was too
narrow and wasn’t right. We need to have all voices. And I think Liz’s
documentary is very welcome.
Again, one of my
key points as Minister for Disabled People Health and Work at DWP is to support
disabled people to feel supported, understood and valued, and they shouldn’t be
worried about this, and their voices and those representing them and their
families need to be heard. This is about a very wide-ranging debate; it needs
to be a grown-up and adult debate. But for me, huge caveats and support is
needed to be given should any law change. And I think we have to be very
open-minded, anybody who is voting for that.
EMMA- So, just to be really clear, will
you be voting for or against the current bill that’s being brought through?
MIMS- I haven’t seen the details of
current bill. I’ve voted against it before. I’ve given you the background about
my dad and how I feel about this. I understand Esther Rantzen and other people
have different views. But for me, at the moment if anybody was voting for it
you’d have to have huge caveats, it would have to be very well understood, and
I think we’re miles away from that. I think it’s important to have the debate,
but for me, disabled people and those with health conditions and wellbeing
needs have to be listened and understood. And we’re miles away, as far as I can
see, from making any kind of change to the law.
EMMA- Thanks to Mims Davies, Minister for
Disabled People, Health and Work, and to Craig Crowley from the BSL Advisory
Board. And we have our own BSL videos on the BBC Sounds YouTube channel. There
are six of them and they are highlights from some of our favourite interviews
this year so far. Please do take a look.
We have had some
feedback about last week’s episode about exam preparations. We had it from
someone who’s doing their GCSEs at the moment, it’s Ruth, and she says, ‘I have
dyslexia, which means it takes me longer to process information. And the stress
of exams can cause panic attacks. Because of this I get 25% extra time, 15
minutes worth of rest breaks, and software which reads me the exams through
headphones – that’s my favourite line. These arrangements do not give me an
advantage over the neurotypical – so I think she means people who are not
neurodivergent – but they allow me to perform at my best. Thank you for talking
about it’. Well, thank you for emailing us, Ruth, we really, really appreciate
it.
That’s it for this
week. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.